Did you even WATCH this link?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

JJ talks about a double blind test he gave between amps. I bet you couldn’t have passed it either.

Good bye Froggie, I meant Gordie.

–Ethan

I ‘listen’ to components to ‘hear’ what sounds better to ‘me’. The sounds of components are subjective. There can be no universal claim of ‘this sounds better.’ When I try two different foods, I don’t ask which is more expensive. I ‘taste’ them. Understand now? Probably not. There is no placebo effect when you have no interest in which item sounds, looks, tastes, or feel better to ‘you.’

Ethan, why are you avoiding listing your components? I’m sure people would like to know what they will be listening to if they take up your kind gesture of having a visit. Also, again, have you ever tried an expensive, no, ‘different’ power cord or cable?

Ethan, have you ever tried an expensive power cord or pair of interconnects on your system? What are your components?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

This article offers another compelling explanation:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html

Also, I extend my standard invitation to everyone who lives near me in Western Connecticut to visit some weekend afternoon for listening tests and discussion.

–Ethan

I’ve got a pretty nice system – Arcam Solo (integrated amp/pre/cd) and Vienna Acoustics speakers all hooked up with inexpensive Monster Cable and stock power cords. Until recently I have not felt the need to experiment with exotic cables but after all the fuss from people who profess to hear a big difference and the avalanche of people who seem just as certain in their denouncements of cables and tweaks in general, I am wondering if maybe it’s time I take a listen for myself. You know, where there’s smoke there’s bound to be fire and all that.

So my question to you Ethan is this, is there any reason why I should not at least give cables a listen in my system? Also if your answer is “no you should not give cables a listen” then please explain why. I might add that I am not interested in anyone telling me I should not “trust my ears” as the only reason for trying cables will be to gain increased satisfaction from my current stereo system and if it sounds better to me, then great, mission accomplished.

Thanks,
Howard

The same idea persists – It’s not the cords, cables, or isolation devices that make the sound change. It’s the room, it’s that you are not putting your head in exactly the same place, it’s what you ‘want’ to hear not what you ‘actually’ hear, it’s buyer’s remorse, it’s something, ‘anything’ not related to any of these devices. You have to test a system, not listen to it. Believe me, if I could not tell a difference, I would not keep such a product. I would return it.

Do you honestly think that anyone in their right mind who purchases a product tests it rather than uses it to determine if it works? I certainly hope not. I don’t. Again, I don’t ‘want’ a product to work, I simply ‘determine’ if it works using my own senses. I once tried a maple butcher block under one amp and found it to sound more relaxed than the other, not as harsh. I then tried a 1 1/2″ granite slab under one amp, fully expecting it to be the Holy Grail. Egad, what a mess. Too sterile, too cold. Out it went. To deny to myself that these differences in sound did not exist would be absolutely ridiculous. I would imagine that you would have taken our microphones and testing equipment to determine something that was so obvious. That seems to be your approach. That if fine by me.

In your presentation, state that a double-blind test is suitable if changes are subtle. In my experience, there have been times when accessories made subtle changes and times when they did not. My acid test for my system is if I can sit back and look at the front wall and imagine that the orchestra is playing right in front of me. Can I tell where instruments are? Are choirs simply groups of people or are they a collection of individual voices. Your mind quickly leaves behind any components, tweaks, or preconceptions. It’s just enjoying the music. Honestly, if you have not experienced this, you have indeed missed out. With a stock power cord, this feeling simply does not exist. It just doesn’t. I’m using dual Shunyata V-Ray power conditioners. I tried plugging amps into the wall but found that just didn’t cut it. Not a subtle difference, either. Also, you won’t get this from a $500.00 receiver, no matter what cord or cable you attach to it.

I might as well tell the names of my selected cables I use – power cords are Shunyata Anaconda Helix Alphas. And, they are on every single component in my system. All my speaker cables are Tara Labs The 0.5 and all my interconnects are 0.5s as well. Each and every cable and cord has gone through many, many hours of evaluation over many months. For someone to brush aside my experiences and simply tell me that I am fooling myself is laughable. To suggest that I have to record the sound and run it through an electronic analyzer to prove a difference in the sound is nonsensical.

Have you ever listened to an expensive power cord or interconnect on a ‘good’ system? If you cannot actually hear a difference, I honestly feel sorry for you. You ARE missing out.

Gord

There are several problems with changing only one channel to hear differences in sound from applying tweaks. Have you ever measured the room response of your system at high resolution? I’m sure the left and right channels are very different! So that alone makes this not a great test method. If you’ve never measured your speakers and room with software like Room EQ Wizard (PC) or FuzzMeasure (Mac), I urge you to do so. I promise it will be a HUGE eye-opener.

Here’s the crux of the problem:

Gordie wrote: “Your response seems to highlight a concern that so many of us have. That is that listening initially takes precedence over electronic testing.”

Testing is infinitely more reliable than listening, assuming you test the right things. This is not to say that testing will tell you if a change to the system made it sound “better.” That’s entirely subjective. But testing can surely tell if the sound has changed at all, and by how much, far more reliably than using ears. Every time you play a piece of music it sounds a little different, even when nothing has changed. This is a complex issue, and is the subject of my recent AES Workshop video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ

My point in asking you too record with and without isolation was to be able to play the result two times in rapid succession, and without having the sound come from different places. I also hoped you would email the result files, so I could compare them here scientifically to see what differences there might be.

To Marcel, it is easy to prove or disprove the effect of putting a pillow or whatever under a power amp. The way to prove this is to record audio both ways, then compare the recordings. I extend the same offer to you. If you’d like to make recordings both ways and send them to me, I’ll be glad to evaluate the files and report here what I find. You can email me from my web site http://www.ethanwiner.com. In the mean time, find an hour when you can watch my video undisturbed, and let me know if the points made make sense to you.

–Ethan

Your response seems to highlight a concern that so many of us have. That is that listening initially takes precedence over electronic testing. Anyone who has invested a great deal of time and money in a system would be foolish to plug in a new power cord and convince themselves that ‘boy this is going to sound great!’ That is not the way it works at this level. There are no kids here that have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on a sound system.

Early on, I wanted to eliminate auditory memory and built a biamped system. Evaluation is easy and reliable. Change only one side – listen, change only the other side – listen, change both sides – listen. No preconceptions or expectations. Knowing what I am changing does not convince me one way or another of what the resulting change in sound will be. I have no interest in promoting or purchasing new products in order just to ‘have one.’ Listen, just listen. I’ve listened to power cords that changed to sound for the worse, or at least in a way I did not appreciate. Others for the better. The hobby is about listening, not wishing.

You do not seem to recognize that a ‘controlled way’ of testing ‘is’ listening to both channels of a biamped system at once with either different power cords, interconnects, isolation devices, or whatever is being tried. Auditory memory is not applicable. If I am not able to distinguish between both channels of a system, then I should indeed find another hobby. I’m not able to record my system at this time. I personally have found no need to. I’m not sure if you want to evaluate such resulting files by listening or by technical means. You did not specify.

Once, just as a joke, I changed all my power cords to stock and took away any isolation devices or other such products. I sat back and listened. I sat there quite surprised by how much all those tweaks helped after all. I paid how much for all this? That session lasted for about five minutes before everything was replaced. Never again!

Gord

Do you have a way to record audio from your amp’s speaker output terminals? If so, record ten seconds or whatever with and without the “isolation device” in place. Then you’ll have a controlled way to tell if there really is a difference. Or just record the output of the loudspeaker with a microphone fairly close, with and without isolation. If you email me the files I’ll be glad to give you a second opinion.

–Ethan

Ethan – please explain why an isolation device under one amp of a biamped system can positively changea the sound of that channel when compared to the other channel when both are played at the SAME time. Be as ‘scientific’ as you wish. And, please spare me the old ‘did you do a double blind test?’ routine, or ‘you don’t know what you are hearing.’ My testing dismisses audio memory. Left and right are listened to simultaneously. I await…..

I trust my ears and I am skeptical of anyone who ignores their sences in favor of test instruments that are not even ten years old and will be laughably obsolete in another ten years. I also mistrust anyone who tries to get me to ignore my reality in favor of theirs, especially when their reality flys in the face of what I know to be true.

Sorry but I’ve had enough of pepole trying to do my thinking; that’s why I’m a skeptic.

Please contact ScamLabs at your convenience, there’s always room here for one of your insidious ilk.

PS: There’s room here for your puppet ‘Thanks’ too (that was a nice touch accusing Winer of ‘sock puppetry’, which you so likely practice yourself).

Ethan seems to think all people are deaf or delusional when it comes to listening to higher-end stereo gear. I thought listening was what this all about. It seems not. It is supposedly about gaining graphical results and double-blind tests. Ethan, if your ears are so limited as to not tell the difference between power cords and interconnects, then so be it. That’s not the rest of the world’s problem. Please keep it to yourself. Don’t go on a childish rampage to warn others of the ‘bad’ people out there who sell such items. It only makes you appear to be foolish and frustrated. Not a put-down, just an honest opinion.

A simple test – if you are running two mono block amps, replace one cord on one side and then sit back and listen. Golly, what have we here? They sound different. The side with the higher priced cord/cable sounds clearer and more distinct. Imagine that. But no, we are supposed to think we are hearing things and immediately organize strict double-blind tests. Huh? Really? Are our brains and ears so delusional that we cannot hear the difference between left and right? Please.

It always strikes me that our ears are so innacurrate during relaxed listening but they become so articulate during a double blind test….according to the skeptics. When we simply listen, we are supposed to be totally confounded and have no idea of what we are listening to. We cannot tell the difference between cords, components, cables, etc. Even left – right comparisons are not possible. Our thoughts are totally confused.

Yet, during a double-blind test, I can imagine someone thinking – ‘Are they really switching the cords? Are they tricking me by keeping the same cord for all tests?’ I think there is more going on in the minds of people during tests than just relaxed listening. But, even then, how can those totally useless ears suddenly become calibrated microphones that can be relied upon to make accurate measurements during the double-blind tests? If we don’t know what we hear during relaxed listening, then we cannot know what we hear during a test. No, we are not influence by our eyes during the test, but still, our supposedly useless ears are still providing the data.

I read in Hydrogen Audio that one person couldn’t tell the difference between an MP3 player and a Bang and Olefson stereo and their comment went untouched. But, when someone posted that they could hear a difference between two power cords, they were pounced on within a few minutes.

How about just closing your eyes and trying to determine if the left and right sound different? No, I don’t think that is allowed by the skeptics. Your silly brain tricks you into ‘thinking’ that both sides sound different. I guess your right eye can also be tricked into thinking it sees blue while your left eye thinks it’s seeing pink. Overall, a person has no idea of that their senses are telling them. It’s all in their minds. Does all this sound foolish? It does to me.

Ethan, that you can constantly go out of your way to attack other fellow manufacturers of their wares is rather disgusting. If these cables and cords did nothing, their manufacturers would have gone out of business a long time ago. With the number of people and companies (yes, companies) who purchase (yes, purchase) these items and are perfectly happy with them, you would appear to be the lone kid standing in the rain after the baseball game crying,’ No, we didn’t loose! Really, we didn’t! The ref didn’t know what he was seeing. Everybody is wrong but I’m RIGHT!’

I don’t know what to add – I will still trust my ears in this hobby. I didn’t even think there was an issue with hearing when I started this hobby. Then I came across a few forums like this. The first thought was,’Are these people deaf?’ There have been tweaks that made no difference to me and some that have sounded plain lousy. That just reinforces that I ‘can’ hear properly. Just my two cents.

Play on.